Brontez Purnell by Laylah Amatullah Barrayn for The New York Times, 2022.
Brontez Purnell by Laylah Amatullah Barrayn for The New York Times, 2022.

Jeremy O. Harris and Brontez Purnell

Across the Table

On View: April 15

Across The Table brings together The Kitchen and BOMB Magazine in critical dialogue and creative collaboration at the turning of anniversaries across both dynamic institutions. With The Kitchen celebrating its 50th and BOMB celebrating its 40th, each has built a community that centers artists and their voices first. In a moment where models of care continue to be central to the ways the future of art can be imagined, The Kitchen and BOMB have teamed up to present a series of conversations via Instagram Live that invite two artists with distinct ways of making and thinking to share common ground. Bringing together folks who have never-before been in public conversation with each other, Across The Table gives space to center the creative process as its own site of exploration ripe with mutual points of departure. The series features artist-to-artist conversations between Sadie Barnette and Meriem Bennani (February 11, 4pm); Jawole Willa Jo Zollar and Kaneza Schaal (February 18, 4pm); Lex Brown and Miguel Gutierrez (February 25, 2pm); Lafawndah and Qualeasha Wood (April 1, 1pm); and Jeremy O. Harris and Brontez Purnell (April 15, 1pm).

This video features a recording of Jeremy O. Harris and Brontez Purnell on April 15, 2022.

Across the Table: Jeremy O. Harris and Brontez Purnell


BOMB Magazine has been publishing conversations between artists of all disciplines since 1981. BOMB’s founders—New York City-based artists and writers—created BOMB because they saw a disparity between the way artists talked about their work among themselves and the way critics described it.

Today, BOMB is a multi-media publishing house that creates, disseminates, and preserves artist-generated content from interviews to artists’ essays to new literature. BOMB includes a quarterly print magazine, a daily online publication, and a digital archive of its previously published content from 1981 onward.


Isis: Hello, hello, everyone.

Jeremy O. Harris: Hi.

Isis: Hi.

JO: How good am I? I literally timed this perfectly. I just walk into my apartment right at eight.

Isis: Period.

JO: Yeah, let me-

Isis: That's impeccable timing.

JO: I didn't time it perfectly before, obviously, because I basically didn't realize I was gonna be in my play. Hi.

Isis: Hi.

Avery: Hi. How are you?

JO: I'm well, how are you?

Avery: I'm good. My name is Avery. I'm the interpreter for today.

JO: Lovely to meet you, Avery. Thank you for doing this.

Avery: Thank you for having me but I'm gonna be quiet now. So, it's nice to meet you. Nice to see you again, Isis. Thank you for your patience today.

JO: Thank you all for your patience with me. I am often late. Usually, I don't have a good excuse, but today someone did steal the Bible for my play. So, um, we were looking for the Bible and figuring out what to do if there was no Bible and we figured it out.

Isis: So was the Bible ever found? No.

JO: No. Someone took it off the stage.

Isis: Oh, okay.

JO: Yeah. Someone from the audience was like, "I wanna have a memento." And the memento they chose was not like, you know, a piece of the pool, like a little bit of water or something. The memento they chose was the Holy Bible. That, the prop holy Bible.

Isis: Oh wow. Very.

JO: Yeah.

Isis: An ironic choice.

JO: Yeah. You know, some people just wanna feel blessed at home, you know.

Isis: Yep. Hi Brontez.

Brontez Purnell: Hey!

JO: Hi Brontez.

BP: What's up, my beautiful Jeremy?

JO: Nothing much, what's up with you?

BP: I don't know. But looks like we doing the Telfar earring. So, I said fuck yeah.

Isis: Yeah. Let's match. Let's be twins.

JO: I don't have the earrings, but I do have the purse.

BP: I have, yo, I have the bootleg necklace.

JO: I love it. I'm gonna sit with-

Isis: Telfar-ed out.

JO: Our IG live like this.

BP: So far it's always just like, "Hi Brontez, are you well?"

JO: Get a picture of this, so that they'll post it on their, someone videotape this and send it to Telfar.

Isis: Yeah. Let's. All right. I took a screenshot that's.

BP: Telfar is so over my fuckin' 4:00 AM molly text. I just love you so much. Like, do you know how much I love you, Telfar? He's like, "Thank you, Brontez. I appreciate that you love me."

JO: Is BOMB a Black-owned business or is Telfar? 'Cause I feel like Telfar, BOMB should sponsor Telfar.

BP: Wait, who did?

Isis: Hey

JO: Someone said BOMB should sponsor Telfar, and I'm like, I don't know if BOMB is a Black-owned business.

BP: Well, you know the first thing they teach you in African American studies class, is that in America, Black business has never existed outside of white patronage.

JO: That's what my play's about in some ways.

BP: Oh, well do tell. What's the synopsis?

Isis: Wait, wait, wait, wait. I just wanna, before we get into it and before we start the ki, I just wanna introduce everyone. So, that people who are here know what this is and who y'all are, in case they didn't.

JO: Couldn't believe it. They don't know who I am. I'm out.

Isis: I mean, hey. Hey.

BP: They probably already blocked me on Grindr.

Isis: But just a little, a little intro. Welcome to Across The Table, an artist conversation series organized by The Kitchen and BOMB magazine. I'm Isis, BOMB's digital media coordinator. Across The Table is a critical dialogue and creative collaboration at the turning of anniversaries across both of our dynamic institutions. In case, you don't know about BOMB or The Kitchen, since its inception in 1971, The Kitchen based in Chelsea has been a local, national and international nexus of avant-garde and experimental art. BOMB magazine is a non-profit supporting artists in conversations since 1981, quarterly in print and everyday online. In a moment where models of care continue to be central to the ways the future of art can be imagined, The Kitchen and BOMB have teamed up to present a series of conversations via Instagram Live.

Thank you all for joining and for a bit about the two amazing artists we have here today, in case you didn't know, which you should know, but just in case you didn't. Jeremy O'Harris' full-length plays include Slave Play, “DADDY,” Black Exhibition, Xander Xyst, Dragon 1 and Water Sports; or, Insignificant White Boys. His work has been presented or developed by Jack, Ars Nova, The New Group, New York Theatre Workshop, Performance Space New York and more. In 2018, Jeremy co-wrote A24's film, Zola. He is the 11th recipient of the Vineyard Theatre's Paula Vogel Playwrighting Award, a 2016 MacDowell Colony Fellow, an Orchard Project Greenhouse Artist, and is under commission from Lincoln Center Theater and Playwrights Horizons. Jeremy is a graduate of the Yale MFA Playwrighting Program.

Brontez Purnell is a writer, musician, dancer, filmmaker and performance artist. He is the author of a graphic novel, a novella, a children's book and the novel Since I Laid My Burden Down. Recipient of a 2018 Whiting Writers' Award for Fiction He was named one of the “32 Black Male Writers of Our Time” by T: The New York Times Style Magazine in 2018.

JO: That was where we met.

Isis: What was that?

JO: We met there.

Isis: Oh nice. Purnell is also the front man for the band The Younger Lovers, a co-founder of the experimental dance group the Brontez Purnell Dance Company, the creator of the renowned cult zine Fag School, and the director of several short films, music videos, and most recently, the documentary Unstoppable Feat: The Dances of Ed Mock. Born in Triana, Alabama, he's lived in Oakland, California, for over a decade. Welcome Jeremy and Brontez. All right, Imma step off the screen and mute myself. Y'all have a little chat, have a little ki and I'll be back when there's like five minutes left, in case there are any questions to facilitate a Q&A. All right.

JO: I mean, what are we even supposed to talk about, Brontez? I love that you so totally outdoing me with mise-en-scène. Your mise-en-scène is gorgeous.

BP: I went to UC Berkeley for conceptual art practice.

JO: You had to let these hoes know.

BP: I know.

JO: Sometimes, people forget that you're a writer, sometimes. I think people like assume you're just like-

BP: Wait, what? They just assume what?

JO: Think people just think of you as a digital thot. They don't always immediately think of you as a writer as well, and a conceptual artist.

BP: I mean and the fact that those things have to be mutually exclusive, shows where these hoes is at, but you know, we contend with this reality. I think. So, Jeremy, like how's London?

JO: I love London. I, you know, I think I'm gonna have an accent soon. I'm just gonna start living here and just chatting like this, you know, you know, just like something slight, you know, something where it's just like, you know, is that how he's always spoken? Or is that new?

BP: Okay, I'm gonna say something real well, not incinerary, whatever, but I am all for Black Americans going over and taking over media and fuckin' Britain, 'cause it's like, they damn sure take our jobs all the time. Like what the fuck? I ain't with it.

JO: I, you know what, I really reject the idea that they take our jobs. I don't know. I feel like that's like-

BP: Well I'll start the war then. I'll yell out the loudest. I'm joking. To my Black British people, I'm joking.

JO: I think, because I think that the minute, like when you actually think. The like actual, like Black actors in Hollywood that are working, it's like not that many Black Brits that are doing that much more here. It just like, it's like that weird nationalist thing that conservatives are always talking about where they're like, they're taking our jobs and I'm like, no, let the Black Brits, if they wanna sell the drugs in our movies over here, they should. And I think, more of us should just come over here and like say "Chip, chip, cheerio" and like drink tea in their shows.

BP: Yeah.

JO: I'm all for Black Americans going to RADA and then showing them that we can do their thing too.

BP: Wait, is it Idris or Adris?

JO: Idris.

BP: Idris. Oh yeah. Idris is totally taking all the roles meant for me. (laughter)

JO: You know what makes me sad is that I think my Instagram has a bug and every time I'm on Instagram Live, it like just freezes at a certain point. So, I stop being able to read the comments.

BP: Don't read, read the comments later.

JO: I know. You can't read them later. You have to read them live. That's why it's on Instagram Live.

BP: Oh my God. I bet you-

JO: And I like seeing what people are saying and engaging, knowing how my audience feels. That's why I do theater.

BP: Oh.

JO: Cause you know, one of the things about making movies is that when you make a movie and you know this, you can't sit in every screening and see what everyone's responses are, you know. But when you make a play, you can.

BP: Fuck. Oh, that is kind of more godlike. You're like, yeah. Brontez, yes, exactly.

JO: I played Sims a lot growing up. It's my favorite game.

BP: You went to what?

JO: I played the Sims, you know that, that video game.

BP: You know, I'm 40.

JO: Are you actually 40? I always forget that.

BP: You should. Yeah. Say it again. I'm like what.

JO: I love having older friends 'cause it makes me feel young. So like, if I'm 50, they will be 60. It'll be really chic to me because then I'll be like "Well I'm still like the young one here. Like, sorry guys."

BP: You gonna be sitting there 60 and I'm gonna be 70, still asking you to explain what the fuck Sims is like, no, I know it was a digital game with the people and you were avatar and you got to control their emotions and shit. That's cool. Like, so you got a God complex. I'm a fiction writer because I'm a pathological liar.

JO: Interesting. You write autofiction often or what seems like autofiction. How do you ascribe, do you feel like you're, you do that? Or do you not? Are you actually writing fiction fiction? That just happens to be full of Black boys who live in Oakland.

BP: Huh. How do I say it? It's always a composite. Cause it's like, I'm not, I'm never someone that's gonna sit down and like write verbatim what happened like in my head I'm always like, I'll take a situation, but I'll switch the situation or the person that was in, I would substitute their voice for like the voice of my mom or the voice of someone else or like. And by the time you do that much remixing and chopping and screwing, like it's almost, it's almost not. I mean, yes, it's auto fiction, but I do feel like I write composites and it's like the sum total of experiences of me and like, you know, a group of 20 friends who had a similar experience.

JO: I love that, you know, I'm trying, I'm keep, I'm like trying to think of his name and it's not like Robespierre but it's like a French writer said, you know 'cause autofiction's French. And it was like very like popular for a moment. And the writer who came up with, this one writer was like, I can't stand these autofiction niggas like they suck. And like, here's why when I write, I write characters. Okay. And the reason I write characters is 'cause if I was just writing about myself, that would basically be like me using my own waste. Like is shit useful? Is spit useful? Is hair useful? Not really. So, why would I tell you my life story? He was like, what we should be doing is writing more characters and celebrating that. Okay. How about we do that challenge? And it was like, I love this like weird essay he wrote. It's really good. I can't remember who it was, but like I read it in my autofiction class and it was like, oh wow, like niggas have been mad for a long time about all sorts of shit. Just like the people were having wars about crazy stuff. And I kind of like, but it did stick with me because I think about that a lot. Because I think some of my work tends, I write in two modes, either I'm writing fiction or I'm writing these things that are mining something of myself because I don't journal or diary, like I hate that, but I do see a therapist a lot. So, some of them, I'll take like things from therapy and just like put them into like a container for me to be a part of. So, like that's like my play Black Exhibition or my play Water Sports that I acted in. And those are really cathartic things for me, but also not necessarily things I needed critiqued ever. Like I needed, I never needed anyone to like write a paper about whether or not that was good or not. Whereas like with “DADDY” or Slave Play, there are things that are farther away from me and like actually like fictional constructions and like endeavors in form. I do feel differently about it. So how do you feel about, I do wanna see those things critiqued and like written about and like studied. How do you feel about critique when it comes to your work? Since these things you're making are these composites. Do they feel close to have someone write like a New York Times review of it?

BP: I don't, I don't know. I don't know. First, just to jump back a little bit, the reason why I do have like a fight against memoir is just 'cause of like structurality of like the writing world, where it's like always with marginalized people, always with women, blacks, gays, we must always be writing memoir or mining our own thing. And in the most extreme example, like a white man can write memoirs of a geisha or like some white woman can write about like the migrant experience and they're fiction writers. They're custodians of history. When I call myself a fiction writer, unless it really happened to me, I'm a pathological liar. So, really I do fight for it to be fiction because I am smart enough to like compose like kind of like a world like that. Is it helpful to have a critique? I don't fuckin' know because I never, I was not the girl that ever really expected a critique. Like almost, almost what, like almost a decade or like 15 years after Johnny Would You Love Me If My Dick Were Bigger was written. Like I wrote that, well, that was like in my twenties, like working as a waiter and it came out on like the San Francisco Beatnik Press and it was just about the way boys like us was wildin’. No one would've published that in mainstream culture. But now that like everyone's reading this kind of thing that was intended for 20 people, I'm kind of like, I kind of think, I don't know. I kind of think it's funny. And also, I just think critique is funny too 'cause it like how hard these motherfuckers go to fuckin guard the intellectual experimental property of theater and literature. When like a hundred years of white boys, they shit all over that shit. What cannot be imagined and what cannot be done, you know? And it's like, whenever I hear a critique, again, it always says more about the person reading it than it will ever say about me. So, I'm kinda like, I don't know. Like, does it help? Yes. It always helps being in the New York Times to answer your question.

JO: Daddy New York times, please write about me again. Thanks, bye. No I um Yeah, that's a really, as someone who used to be a critic, I love-

BP: You was a critic? You was up there telling folks what to do?

JO: Well, no, actually I had a rule as a critic. I only wrote about things I liked because I was an indie film critic. And I was like, if someone spent $3 million making a movie or $400,000 making a movie, why, like why do I need to tell them that, tell everyone that this movie is so bad, they don't need to see it. Like who is that helping? Like, it's actually more fucked up to a $400,000, $3 million movie, just to not write about it. It's like, it's just like, and, but also it saves them something, right? It gives them space. So, that the only reviews that could be out about it are things that are like, this was good. Go see it. Cause like ain't no one gonna see it. even if the reviews are good, you know what I mean? You can get a New York Times Critics’ Pick for your indie movie and unless it's on Netflix and like the top of the queue, you're not gonna watch it. So, I wanted to be a critic that celebrated work and in my private, sort of life as a critic, sort of write about what works that didn't work for me were doing. But not to say like, this is bad because I don't like movies that are middle brow that are like, that are mid-grade high brow. I'm like who am I to say that, you know.

BP: Also, here's like the ultimate and it's like the universal problem, I've always had with like critique. Whenever, I got a really harsh critique, the only thing they was ever telling me is why I wasn't writing like their favorite writer.

JO: Yes.

BP: And so I'm just like, I'm always kinda like, I don't know. When I write something, I only write about the things I liked about it.

JO: Yeah.

BP: Like just, I don't know, like as a general rule. Cause I don't know. Yeah. I do feel like that's helpful.

JO: I mean, I almost was a music critic for a while. And the big thing that I, the biggest thing about music criticism that I found quite curious is that most of the people that write music criticism don't even know how to play instruments. They're just like, I like the song. I don't like the song. Like I was like, I don't know. It feels weird to be like this like Death Grips album is like the best album of the decade because I vibe with it the most. And I'm like, I don't know Zach's doing on those drums. I just know I like it. You know what I mean? And I was like, I actually kind of wish that someone with like more rigor could do this. 'Cause I felt comfortable writing film criticism. I understand screenwriting. I understand how to make a film in some ways. Right. I literally have no way around a guitar. Like the fact that you've been in a band like blows my mind, like I feel like I have the vibe of someone who should have been in a band. And I just wasn't because I was, I don't like doing things I'm bad at.

BP: Oh, ok. I love failing in front of people. Like you're gonna watch me do this. God damn it until I get better. No, I guess. But there's like levels. Cause sometimes too, like I come from a blues family and like guitar has always been there. But also, I like don't know what the chords are called. I don't know the notes. Like I just like have a tune. And also quite honestly, I wish I had just been a rapper 'cause like, I'll be like looking at like Lil Nas X and shit and Mykki Blanco. And like them niggas like show up with their like music on a thing. I have to carry amps, split the money three ways. It was just like, who taught me that this colonial white boy shit was the way to go. That I was gonna be the next Kurt Cobain. And like, I like it didn't happen. And I really just played rock 'n' roll still because it's who else will have me at this point. So.

JO: Thank you. There's space for you and Rob. You can go solo, babe. What would your-

BP: I don't know. Huh?

JO: What would your rap name, would it be Brontez Purnell?

BP: What would, no, it would be Mature Fitness.

JO: Ooh, Mature Fitness. That's so Oakland of you. Like Oakland rappers, would you be a little conscious, wouldn't you?

BP: No, I do a lot of drugs. I'd be out of it. I'd be dumb as hell. I'll be swearing on the mic. Like I'm like fuck. I'm like fuck every job.

JO: Oh my god! You could be gay Kodak Black.

BP: Oh God. I think I am. (laughter)

JO: Great. I love his interviews and how like, just like I loved that like there's publicly a rapper, who's like one of the most popular rappers in the country. He's just like I love Trump. Trump's my nigga. He got me outta jail and everyone's just like, we love Kodak Black. I'm like we haven't canceled him. Cool. We don't. Okay, cool. I love it. Like he's kind of punk.

BP: I don't know. I also think that like once you reach that level of troubled dark-skinned Black boy, they really just, people's minds go blank too. Like, so they're just like, okay, Kodak, let's go get him some lean. Get him to bed. Come on, Ye. Let's get you to bed. All right, blah, blah, blah, blah.

JO: You know, I have a complicated relationship with Ye. So.

BP: I ain't got a complicated relationship with him. I stick by every fuckin' problematic, dark-skinned Black boy with problems 'cause bitch, I'm one and it's hard. Goddamn it. Fuck it. Now, there's some lot of fuck niggas I will not goddamn back, but like Ye. Ye has not pissed me off yet. It's giving trouble. It's giving troubled negro youth in his forties of which I am one. I would be a fuckin' hypocrite throwing Ye away. No, I won't fuckin hear about it. So, oh, Jeremy. Jeremy. Oh, Jeremy was over me. Jeremy was like, oh my God, Brontez, you've gone too far this time.

Isis: Oh my days, wait. Requesting again. He's back. I think.

BP: I'm loving this white, this white Obatala we're giving.

Isis: You know, you know?

BP: Okay.

Isis: Keep me cool.

BP: No, seriously, I was looking- You know, I got, you know, I got my alter up. I'm ready.

Isis: I got-

BP: I keep this

Isis: Period.

BP: That's Ruth Beckford. One of the Black dance mothers of Oakland.

JO: Wow.

BP: She, when I was a Dunham student, she would come to our class. She danced in Oakland vaudeville dance with Katherine Dunham. I went up to her when I was 22. And I was like, yeah, I like dance naked in this band. And we like go on tour. She was like in a wheelchair, like just like who the fuck is this child? And she was like, well, I hope you expect to have a very short career. And I've been doing it for 20 years. And every year, I dedicate my career to her.

JO: Well, babes, didn't you want me to be a dance dramaturg for you very shortly?

BP: Yeah.

JO: What's that dance?

BP: Oh, ok. So, I'm doing like my first solo dance piece at Performance Space New York. It's very, it's giving Pina Bausch but it's based off of this. Like I had to go back to my white girl roots and do a Sylvia Plath story. Sylvia Plath, right before 'Ariel' and right before 'The Bell Jar'. She wrote a short kind of science fiction story called 'Johnny Panic and the Bible of Dreams'. And it's about this... It's about this healthcare clinician, mental health clinician who works in this mental health office and steals like the old journals from like the twenties and thirties, recording people's dreams and anxieties. But her boss is the God of anxiety called Johnny Panic who can watch her every move. And eventually steals her away at the end of the story and gives her electroshock. And so-

JO: What?!

BP: I've been wanting to do the dance version of this story for probably around 18 years. And so, I thought it was time.

JO: Wow. Like Miss Plath went off. She could go off sometimes. I love that title as well.

BP: Yeah. it's very, everything about it was way too evocative. And I was just like, who better than me?

JO: It's-

BP: Ain't nobody did it yet. Imma do it.

JO: You know what I mean?

BP: Are you gonna critique my work harshly?

JO: No. 'Cause I don't believe in that actually what, I don't know that it's ever helpful to be inside of someone else's process and be overly dictatorial or didactic about cause again, that's me making your work, my work, right? Like we do, the artists should do that to themselves. They shouldn't have some like paid Virgo, do it to them. You know, although most of my dramaturgs are Virgos or have high Virgo placements.

I think that for me, a dramaturg, a good dramaturg is just like a good therapist for an artist. And they just sort of hang out and listen to the artist's anxieties and reflect back to them what they're saying and what they're seeing. In hopes that like that reflection will lead the artist to figuring it out on their own. 'Cause if someone can tell me 'till the sky is blue, that I need to cut a scene 'cause it's too long. And unless I hear that it's too long. I won't ever like, I won't ever believe it. I'll just be like, well not too long to me. So, fuck you, bitch. What have you made? Show me your play. Let me read it. But then, a weird thing where like someone will be like, “So Jeremy, what I'm seeing right now is that in this scene this is happening. And like, I don't know. Like I feel like it might be, if you're looking for a place to cut, that might be a spot, but otherwise like what are you feeling?” And then I'll watch it. And maybe a week later I'll be like, “Damn, you know what, Emalta? You were right.” Or, “you know what, Michael? You were right. I should cut that scene. It's too long.” Right. And then I'll cut it. But if they had told me I needed to cut that scene 'cause it was too long. Oh, you better believe it would be in there all the way to Broadway 'cause that happened at Yale.

BP: How far do you sit in like deep process? Like with kind of like with other people? I tend to like writing because it really is my only isolationist practice, you know, besides like my editor but it really just gets to be me. But like a play is like, it's a lot of hands. It's a lot of moving. It's a lot of this, that, the other. How do you separate yourself between being like, oh I'm in this collective where this has to work. As opposed to those points where you're like, actually, I'm the boss and someone need to do what the fuck I say.

JO: I mean, I think that's complicated because I think in, inside a process, I think I'm very good. I'm a very generous collaborator. I feel I've been told that a lot, no matter what people have read about me on, those niggas don't know me. They never have, they just love hating me. But I think that most of my collaborators, the reason I've worked with so many of them, so many-

BP: I'll beat somebody's ass if they talk shit to me about you, like, you hear, I'll get real motherfuckin' heated, I'll crack a cellphone, bitch.

JO: It was so funny. I'm like, I know I'm a bitch, like in like in affect. And I wear a lot of fancy clothes, but I'm like not mean like, I don't know that I've like, I don't know why people would like spread rumors that I'm mean. But I am exacting. I know what I like. And what I will say is that because I'm a very generous collaborator, I like to give my collaborators a chance to see their ideas fully out, right. Because like I had two years or a year or five days, I don't, who knows how long it took me to write the play. Right. But I had a certain amount of time to be by myself and beat myself up about every decision I was making before I shared with someone else. And what's really vulnerable about being in a process of like of theater or collaboration is that most of these people who are meeting my work are meeting it and like having, wrestling with it in front of me and a lot of other people, which means sometimes they'll have the idea wrong or like, the thing they're starting to sketch, won't be fully formed. And I will, I have to give myself, give them grace and give myself grace to take a step back and let them get their idea fully articulated before I find out if it works or doesn't work. 'Cause it doesn't help anyone to be like hovering over your sound designer's shoulder as they're like (sound). And you're like, I'm sorry, I don't like that brmp sound. You know, before they've even like told you this, And they're like (different sound). You know, then you'll see that you like it. But if you're like over there on top of them the entire time, it won't work. And so, I think that it makes the process a lot, a lot slower. And, but it does, I think for me, reap a lot of benefits. ‘Cause I think that giving my collaborators a lot of rope to really put their artistry inside of it and not being like I'm the playwright, in America playwrights have the final say and everyone should shut the fuck up and do what I want it to be. Like that's why Slave Play was better. Or why “DADDY” is better than like, like, or feels special. 'Cause it's not just me. It's like me and the people that I've worked with.

So like, one great example of that is that I wrote Slave Play to have an intermission in it. Like there's literally this whole moment at the end of the first act, it's like, let's take a 15 minute break. And in my mind I was like, this is such a gag like she tells everyone to have a 15 minute break. You have a 15 minute intermission. Then she comes back and the first line the therapist says is we're gonna be here for an hour. And then I'm writing the second act to be exactly one hour. Like the girls haven't done Aristotle, like I'm doing Aristotle. Like I am here for the idea of time and space, bitch. And then, Robert was like, “I don't know. I don't think it needs to have an intermission.” I was like, “Robert, it literally does. Like dramaturgically, like kind of has to like, that's what the gag is that like, there's an intermission.” He's like, “I don't know, if you're telling all these people that you want them to sit inside of your Slave Play, why the fuck are you giving them a break? The slaves didn't get a break.” And I was like, “Oh, well, you know what? That's a better point than I-

BP: Okay. That's why it's called 'Slave Play'. (laughter)

JO: But it was a great, it was a great point. And it actually made, he also knew because Robert has done more theater than me that like, if I had given the audience a chance to leave, we would've never gotten to the end of the play 'cause half the audience would've left. You know what I mean? But if you like, but if you don't give them the chance to leave, there will still be like 20 people a night that leave, but the vast majority of your audience is gonna stay and, at least, hear your points. And that was great.

BP: Oh my God. Seeing that play was pretty phenomenal the first time. Yeah. I don't wanna go down that rabbit hole, but.

JO: Know what I did for the first time today? Well, not for the first time. It's something I do often, but I gave your book to D. B. Weiss. Do you know who that is?

BP: Who's D. B. Weiss?

JO: He's one of the creators of Game of Thrones, D. B. Weiss and David Benioff.

BP: Oh, shit.

JO: Talking about how I had to do this today. And I was like, and he was like, who's Brontez Purnell? And I was like, and that was also, my boyfriend was like, did Brontez get a new face tat and I was like, I think he did. He was like, he wanted me to tell you, it looked good.

But I was like, “D. B., if you don't know Brontez Purnell, you need to know him.” And he is like, “What has he written?” And I was like, “All of these books.” And I was like, “Here, you need to read my favorite book, Johnny Would You Love Me If My Dick Was Bigger” And he was like, “Oh, let me see.” And he sat at my fire pit right outside and read it out loud and chuckled to himself for about 15 minutes. And it was like, it was such a great joy because like the first time reading Johnny Would You Love Me If My Dick Was Bigger I was like, I feel like I found a soul brother. I also feel like I found like a lost writer of like the golden age of queer literature, which for me is like the late eighties, early nineties. Okay. He ruined Game of Thrones? How can you ruin something that don't have an ending already? You know who ruined it? That man who hasn't finished writing his book yet.

BP: Oh my god.

JO: I mean, again, making a TV show is hard and they did that shit for multiple seasons, multiple seasons.

BP: I like, I'm trying to find my groove with TV writing. I really am.

JO: Can we talk about how TV writing is maybe the worst?

BP: Oh, hell yeah. Like, yeah. It's definitely, I had like a kind of weird thing with it where I'm just like, I am a writer, right. And like this belief that like, you know, as a book writer, I should just sit in my room and like scroll my truths out to the world and it must always be this beautiful, perfect thing that I think on like, yeah. But then also I'm a writer. You should be able to go in a room with 15 people and like fuckin' work like a machine or at least put that in your tool bag. But I put that in my tool bag and I was just like damn, like, this is like, I don't know. I think it's kind of crushing and it must always, I think TV must always reinforce the status quo, no matter how marginalized it's pretending to be like, even like when people are just like, "Brontez, have you watched Euphoria?" And I'm just like, no, like I'm 40. Like I was raised by sex working dykes in San Francisco. Like, nah, like I don't need to watch a bunch of like, children that's 120 pounds, fuckin' go through the shit I went through and it's gonna trigger me. I'm trying to heal. Like, but then I don't know. But then I don't know. I'll watch something like The Queen's Gambit and be like, yes, queen! Chess! I dunno how to play it. But this is amazing.

JO: You also are The Queen's Gambit, like you literally are. You're like you, you pop a molly then are able to write like 500 pages of a novel in a night. Like your queen's gambiting these novels out. And I love it. My thing with TV writing is that it's literally a medium that was made to sell soap. And I feel like that sort of like opus that it's like based in capital, is inescapable in that form. In a way, that it is an escape for a lot of other forms.

BP: That, I totally fuckin' vibe with that. I immediately wanted to go and do a bunch of theater work after like exiting some rooms just to get it back in my body.

JO: Yeah.

BP: Wait, you're back on, like with you're back on.

JO: It's not a mistake that so many real great writers of, you know, small novels or indie theater or like, yeah. I had to go write for TV to make money. They don't say I had to go write TV to like to make, to make the best art I could possibly make, you know. They usually say that about making a movie or like writing a novel or making a play. But like, it's so much harder to say that about TV because like at the end of the day, you write it in a room and it's going really great and it does feel artistic and generative. And then, five execs come in and they're like, “Hey, excuse me. So, how are we gonna get 10 million people to watch this every week? Can you explain that to me?”

BP: Man! The gauntlet of bullshit. What's up? Is our time up? What happened?

Isis: I'm just, I'm noting the time. We're about six minutes over. Y'all are free to keep chatting. I just wanna be respectful.

JO: We just call each other and talk like this all the time. It's just like this-

BP: I have just one question. I have like one more question and it's a very deep one. Jeremy, you don't have to answer it.

JO: Yes.

BP: So, we're like working on 100 Boyfriends together. Like the show, right?

JO: Yes.

BP: And there's a possibility that we might be in it.

JO: Why are you telling people?

BP: Huh?

JO: Why are you telling, you just spilled the beans.

Isis: Y'all heard it first.

BP: What the fuck? There's no secrets in the internet. Anyway, Jeremy. So, what I'm asking is during our inevitable sex scene, who's the top? I mean, obviously I'm giving chaotic bottom energy, like all the time and you're giving lawful emotional top, but like when we're together, fictionally.

JO: It could be fun for me to play a bottom on TV. I don't, cause I don't do it enough in real life.

BP: But you're like so much taller than me.

JO: I think that that might be important. I think it's important to show short tops and tall bottom representation.

BP: Actually you might be on to something that all the girls who are six foot two, like yes, girl! Finally! I feel seen get up in my chair.

JO: I always feel disgusted when I see a really tall guy telling like someone who's like as tall or taller than me, like wanting to bottom too aggressively. I'm like, wow, that's gross.

BP: Oh my god.

JO: That's internalized homophobia. And I recognize it-

BP: Speaking of internalized homophobia, right? I was at Paul Sepuya's party right in LA.

JO: Oh, you and Frank Ocean.

BP: And Frank Ocean rolled up, girl.

JO: I will not be a part of Frank Ocean slander. It is too. I'm gonna leave.

BP: I'm not yo, this is Brontez slander. Right? Frank Ocean was like beautiful, like fuckin' like lawful top energy. And I'm sitting there at the party just like bombarding him with chaotic bottom energy. And I could see the slow motion repulsion in his eyes. He's just like, “Brontez like, I would fuck you if you were someone else.” And I was like, “Oh my god, Frank. That's like the best compliment anyone's ever given me.” Like, no, I just, yeah. I just, I wanted him to want me, like, he sung about that girl in that album, but it just didn't happen. So, I guess I'll just still fuck the security guard down the street.

JO: I mean-

BP: No Frank Ocean for me.

JO: You get the trade though all over the place. And like, I will say that like, you know, I don't know. Do you want a famous boyfriend, Brontez? I feel like you're too-

BP: I would love to fuck a man with a job finally. Like, what the fuck? Hell yeah. I want a famous boyfriend. That's all I wanted. Like flag kicks and shit. Come on.

JO: I do have a really funny Frank story that I'll tell you some other time. But he, when I went to my first MET Gala, he let me take pictures of him. 'Cause he asked to take a picture of me ‘cause he had his little camera. He's like, “Can I take a picture of you?” And he took a picture of me and it was like really cute. And I was like, “Oh my God, can I take a picture of you?” And he was like, “Yeah,” I took a picture of him. And he was like, “That's a really good picture. Can you text it to me?” And I was like, mm I don't-

BP: Okay. So, this is what we talking about. And our, this is, this is the key of like our, maybe our Black boy drama. 'Cause let's have some intersectional Black boy drama. That's what I'm fuckin' telling you is like with my last boyfriend Ryan Austin, that nigga was six foot two and lawful top energy. Like the whole, I walked up and I was like, “Frank Ocean, can I take a picture with you?” And he was just like, “I don't really take pictures.” But if I had just been five inches taller and not on cocaine and asked nicely, it's like probably would've went different. It's like- (laughter)

JO: So, I was like, “Oh, I guess I'll DM it to you.” So, I went to Instagram. He was like, “No, I'll give you my phone number.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” So then, Frank Ocean gave me his phone number. I texted him.

BP: Bitch, how the fuck I'm gon' sit here like, Frank Ocean reject me.

JO: No, let me finish. Let me finish telling you the story. And then, he like, liked the image. He was like, thanks for the picture. And I was like, thanks. Send me the one you sent. And then as soon as I sent it, it went green. Like it went from a blue text to a green text.

BP: Oh, shit. Oh my God. Like that's, that's a vibe. That's like, you know.

JO: Did he like block me? Or did he change his number? I don't know. I mean, famous people do just be changing their numbers, but also that's lawful top energy 'cause I was like, I think he was like, oh, I smell a top here. I need to top him in this moment. And maybe, that was the moment when like my asshole loosened a bit and I was like, maybe I am a bottom.

BP: I, see this is the problem too. Like I think like, the fact that I can take some dick should make me highly celebrated. Like, bitches be out here squirming showing up with shitty kittys. I don't do any of that. Like I felt like he should just love me.

JO: I'll give you the list of the boys who will just love you. I'll give you a list.

BP: Yeah. Like am I supposed to be like the Black boy, like indie writer supreme. Where the fuck is my like white boyfriend that don't do drugs.

JO: Wait. I thought you wanted a famous Black boyfriend.

BP: I have, I contain multitudes, Jeremy.

JO: That's so whack. You want a famous white boyfriend? Those are easy to get. Those are like too easy to get like no, the top tier gay in Hollywood is to get-

BP: Okay, yo, okay, Jeremy.

JO: Also, announce who all the secret Latino gay actors are. I led into the back door on that one.

BP: Jeremy. Okay. Again, I am explaining to you my chaotic, bottom boy pain. You're like, famous white boyfriend. That's easy to get. I'm just like, yo wait, what? They like get mad at me.

JO: They're all desperate. All the famous, white people are desperate. It's so boring.

BP: I just think when you a Black man and the world knows that you ain't got eight inches of dick for them, the whole interaction changes. And I have experienced it.

JO: Why do you advertise that you don't have eight inches of dick for them? You should just like do what they do and lie.

BP: To be quite honest. I don't think I owe gay men eight inches of anything. I'm just like, you know, sometimes late at night I go on the hooker website just 'cause you know, I'm lonely, and then I'll be looking and looking 200 pages of hooker ads and they charge $300 an hour. And I'm like, there is not $300 worth of dick on any of these fuckin' profiles. It's just like, and this is like, I don't know. And I'll say, I think the sexual revolution really cheapened sex. Like no, like no, general access in this like free love kind of moment. Like kind of led to where men can really sit on Grindr, thinking that they're ordering a fuckin pizza. Like if this were the fifties, we just would've been glad we found each other. Right. And fuckin' like went on about our goddamn day.

JO: See and this is how I know you were raised in the church. This is how I know you were raised in the church. 'Cause in the south, they are always teaching you in church. You shouldn't be wanting what's over there, over there. Why don't you just keep, why don't, why aren't you just happy with who's in your church family here? Be happy that you're able to find someone at the mixer on Wednesday night after Sunday service.

BP: Booker T Washington said, "Cast your bucket down." (laughter)

JO: OK. Did anyone in the crowd have a question for either of these chaotic freaks or should we start ending it? Cause I do, there are, I have to get, my boyfriend's asleep upstairs. I have to go wake him up. And then I do think that I wanna, you know.

BP: Yeah. My boyfriend, my man ain't sleep 'cause I ain't got one. So.

JO: Cause I think that, I just know that the way you are, the way, the amount of chaos you have. You'll get me on here, just like spilling all my secrets, talking about things I don't wanna talk about. Listen, you know, I'm in London now, I'm British. I am trying to be an upstandable, British writer, you know, I got great reviews. You know, they're saying that I'm electrifying, you know, masterpiece. So I can't, I can't let them know that I do like nasty sex stuff. British people keep it like quiet. The Brits girls speak about it. You know that.

BP: Oh God, I am fuckin', I am the hope and dream of colonization. And they just need to be glad I'm fuckin' saving the English language, fucking...

JO: You are saving this language. You're reminding the girls what real literature looks like and it looks like piss, sweat, cum and shit.

BP: And prophecy and demonation.

JO: Yeah.

BP: Now, everyone knows that we're making 100 Boyfriends into a TV show together. So, that's cool.

JO: Yeah, we got the-

BP: I wasn't supposed to say that?

JO: No, girl 'cause it hasn't been announced.

BP: Oh, well, it's a good thing. Don't nobody watch Instagram Live like.

JO: That's true. I do have to say this on the record, BOMB magazine was my favorite magazine growing up. The Kitchen is one of my favorite places in New York to put theater on. But what I, why I read BOMB magazine was for the conversations. Like the BOMB magazine, artist conversations. And I feel cheated. I waited, I grew up, became a full artist, so that I could do one of those things where it's like Jeremy O'Harris and Brontez in print, full like magazine article or on the internet. And I want either this conversation on the internet, like written down, like I used to read all those other ones or we had to. BOMB magazine has to invite us to be in the magazine.

Isis: Hey listen, we can make it happen. I'm telling you right now, we can make it happen. I mean, it's kinda outta my jurisdiction, but we can make it happen. I know this.

JO: Tell the editors, this is my number one dream ever. Oh, Hannon Jason said he asked a burning question. I don't see it.

BP: What was the question, Hannon?

Isis: Oh, the question is Jeremy, are you single, emotionally available? Like, we don't already know. I don't know.

JO: I, well, I don't, I don't belong to anyone. And I think my boyfriend would say the same thing. And I'm always emotionally available to everyone. I'm an actor. I'm a playwright. I'm an artist. I have to stay emotionally available.

Isis: Okay.

JO: Oh, the associate publisher here saying yes.

Isis: Yes, that's Libby. Yes.

JO: Oh my God. There's like a really good, like Edward Albee is a really good BOMB, like if you don't read the BOMB magazine, like archive of like their artist talks, just do it. There's so many good ones. Like Edward Albee's is good. Tony Kushner's is really good. God. I used to know all of them by heart. If I had my laptop with me, I could like go through my, like, I have a folder of interviews and articles that I love.

Isis: Oh, we're getting so many more questions.

JO: Oh, now we have more questions.

Isis: Okay. We have, Adeyes for Brontez. If you want to, explain the face tattoo.

JO: I love that.

BP: Basically. I've been handsome all my life and I'm fucking over it now. I've been a dirt bag, Oakland punk rocker. I've always wanted face tattoos. And now, that I'm 40, I'm just kind of like, fuck my future. What has my future ever done for me? But I definitely have a present. So yeah. I just want five more.

JO: You just have that ability that Little Richard has to like make lyrics and poems out of like casual speech. It's so insane. Like one of my favorite videos to ever watch, everyone watch everyone should watch it, if you haven't already is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction of, who sings Sittin’ On The Dock Of The Bay'?

BP: Otis Redding.

JO: Otis Redding. Yeah. So, so like Little Richard is asked to induct, the now deceased, Otis Redding into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and there's a 20 minute video of him doing it. And it's so crazy because he's also just, first of all, he's like, "Bitch, I invented rock and roll." Second of all, Otis Redding learned everything from me. We're from the same town. Third, Otis was good, but I was better and he was always trying to be me. Before we gotta celebrate our Black king, Otis Redding. He's amazing. But he like does all these things, where he'll like sing an Otis Redding song and he'd be like, I thought that was me. When I heard that on the radio, I thought it was me. It sounded just like me, anyway. But he has this moment where he's taking, they're getting pictures taken and he is like, "Push the button, white man, push the button." And I was like, that is a song like “push the button, white man, push the button” is literally the lyrics of a song. And when you just said, "I don't know if I have a future, but I definitely know I have a present." I'm like, that's a lyric. Like, that's a bar.

BP: A part of me too is like, as you said it, as you said it I'm actually gonna like write a poem called “Writing My Enemy's Obituary” or “My Competition's Obituary.” I've never even thought about it. Like if I had to be like, I mean a lot of bitches that I felt like took some swag from me and had some shit to talk, but if they died first and I got to speak at the funeral, oh my God, they gonna have to fight me. They're gonna have to fuckin' pull me outta there. Like that's kinda like I won. Right?

JO: You definitely did. But also, I wanna write an essay about like the Black, the sort of like the Black, southern ability to like be casually musical. I'm one who has to write it down. But when I hear my family members talk, like my grandpa was a better writer than like Yates. Like I know he was, you know what I mean? Like he could say some shit. I was like, that's amazing. And my grandpa was like ostensibly illiterate.

BP: It's, I dunno. I feel like it does get like rather poetic or I don't know. I think, I don't know. Being in California 20 years, I do feel like, there's an entertainment to conversation.

JO: Hi, Mykki. We were talking about you earlier.

BP: Oh, Miss Blanco is here.

JO: Do we have any more questions? I don't know anything about Drag Race.

Isis: We got-

JO: Is that Tyra Sanchez is the only winner that I like.

BP: I like have never, the only Drag Race show I watched was the one with Nikki Minaj. And like, that was it. Like, it's just like, I don't know. It became a televised sport and we all became grosser.

JO: Oh my God.

Isis: I don't know. We got-

JO: But what I do love, I love Legendary. I wanna be on Legendary.

Isis: Legendary. Yes. You as a guest judge.

JO: Yes. That's my thing. I wanna talk about theater.

BP: But that's, I say, okay. Essentially, my problem with Drag Race is that I hate all competition shows on TV because it's just like, it really reflects capitalism in this fuckin' like. Like Shark Tank, like, I was working as a, at a barber shop and I was the assistant and these people were watching Shark Tank, like just really thinking that they were gonna make a million dollars one day. And they treated the inner working of the barbershop, as if it were like their shark tank. And I'm just like, this is a dangerous thing to give people. Plus I just, I don't know. I don't wanna work for nothing.

JO: My friend, Jess wants me to tell the world who won the Wordle competition. And my answer is I would have had had I (indistinct), but unfortunately, Jess did win it.

BP: I can't spell.

JO: I do, Here's the thing. I do recognize the ways in which competition is linked to capital, but I also recognize the fact that like competitions have been around longer than like capitalism has. And I do think there is a human need to like, sort of like showcase one's ability and to have like a parade or a promenade, if you will. And I don't mind it. And I actually think that like competition when like, in a spirit of like generosity and not a spirit of like, oh, like my success today means my success forever. BuT more so, my success today means my success today. And I like hope that like, you know, I can keep beating, but maybe it'll go the other way the next day, it's kind of cool to me. Like, I like that in tennis, like one day Serena's winning Wimbledon, the next year she's like out in like the third round, you know, it's like, there's something kind of sexy about that.

BP: Oh, you just wanna keep my fat ass on my toes. Huh?

JO: Wait, also to answer that question, that young person I'm assuming very kindly said, I don't have a lot of fear about sharing my work and I never have. I sort of, I love sharing my work because I don't ever fear that if I showed someone the script for “DADDY,” A Melodrama. Someone could and potentially has, could take like the, sort of like, superficial things about it and make their own version of it. But it won't ever have that flavor. That's just Jeremy O'Harris, you know. They won't know necessarily how to deconstruct a nineteenth century melodrama in the same way I will. And if they do, more power to them, like, 'cause they probably got it done faster than me. 'Cause I take a long time to write, but I don't know. I don't ever have that anxiety. Do you, Brontez?

BP: No 'cause I generally, I feel like I just write about, I don't know, I write about deeply human things. And so at the end of the day, I don't think that there's ostensibly, whatever. I don't think there's anything any of us have ever been through that's so personal, so private or so whatever that, like another human can't like read it and like, you know, just like understand. And even like, I don't know when they're like tearing, like when they, we go online and we tear celebrities apart, like there's this thing of like, oh, there's judgment. But then, there's that other shadow of like the 50% of the population that has definitely went through somewhere where they feel like they've been misjudged or they acted outta line. And so, there's also this pocket of really deep sympathy that is not as vocal as you know, people's angriest critique. And so, I always kind of have to consider that that balance is going on too.

JO: Yeah. It's so funny when you said, "I write about deeply human shit." I thought you were gonna say, I write about like doing hood rat shit with my friends.

BP: I mean deeply human shit. Like. (both laugh)

Isis: Another one, any tips to get over writer's block or the dreaded rewriting process or editing, honestly.

BP: It ain't a block. You just like chilling out.

JO: Cause I think the judgment of one self during those moments of brain rest is what makes you feel like you're blocked or like deeply fucked. 'Cause also, I don't know that. Speaking of capital, right? I don't know that we need to have like a relationship to like, releasing our work. That's like, so like around productivity, right? Like if, for three years, I didn't wanna write, I didn't wanna write. And that's just where, where it was, you know? And I'm sure, there's people that are mad. I'm sure there's someone who paid me, but also my spirit wasn't in it. So, it's not, my spirit won't be on the page. I can-

BP: Rihanna does not owe you new music!

Isis: Facts.

JO: My runner is that she does owe me, personally, new music though, because two years ago we met, I was like, or three years ago we met. I was like, oh my God, like, I'd really love to hear what you're working on. She's like, yeah, I'll play it for you later tonight. And then she never did.

BP: Oh my God. I mean, if it makes you feel better, she didn't play it for me either. So.

Isis: So. (laughter)

JO: (Indistinct)...and go home.

BP: Wait, what?

JO: Should we let this young person go home?

BP: I think so, I'm gonna eat this burrito.

JO: I'm like, Arvand's gonna be mad 'cause I'm waking him up late, late, late. And he loves getting to a restaurant on time.

BP: Yeah, totally. My non-man is still not sleeping.

JO: I just love like being like a non-punctual person, like basically married to like the most punctual person on the planet. The type of person that like when the sink is messed up, he's like, we need to call the person who owns the Airbnb and ask them what's wrong with the sink. And I'm like, well, we could just use a different sink. He's like, no, we need to figure this out. And then, he'll like be doing tutorials with the homeowners over WhatsApp. It's wild. Very different journey.

BP: Oh.

JO: Yeah. He's that.

BP: Is that who I need to be?... Oh, I just, I didn't mean to say that out loud.

JO: (indistinct) ever DM'ed you demanding an apology? I don't drag people on social, really.

BP: Wait, what's the dude from Bloc Party?

JO: Oh, I can't remember his name, but someone thought I was him in Vegas one time.

Isis: Oh, wow.

BP: Oh, yeah. Okay. Like I think this was 2013 and I've done the whole like, you know, process, but yeah. I sent him some unsolicited nudes and he blocked me. And so then, I wrote a post about it and I hashtagged Bloc Party.

Isis: Oh my God.

JO: You're wild, my friend.

BP: I'm really not. I'm just like sitting here.

JO: Yeah. I was in Vegas and someone thought I was the guy from Bloc Party and they were like, you just played up the street, right? And I was like wha-, and they were like, here, we got this table for you. And they gave me his like, his like alcohol, like all of his alcohol, when I was 21.

Isis: So I mean, you got some-

BP: That's-

JO: Yeah.

BP: And again...Oh, Kele, his name's Kele Okereke. Again, lawful top energy. Fuckin', I'm telling you, man. Like I'm the most chaotic, bottom, Black boy in indie rock.

JO: Is Bloc Party gay?

BP: He is.

JO: Oh, well, yeah.

BP: You didn't know he was a gay?

JO: I'm. Does anyone remember that band? You know what I mean? Like. I don't even know what their music sounds like bitch. Much less their biographies.

BP: I'm 40. So yeah, but actually now that I think about it, I can't name 10 songs now. Damn, maybe, I didn't love him.

Isis: Okay. This can be the last one. Last question. Do I have y'all have any sort of rituals that you do before approaching your work?

BP: Procrastinating.

JO: That's it. That's the best one. I also write really late at night. I like writing late. Like I drink a lot of coffee and I write until like 8:00 AM. But I don't start until like 2:30-3. So like, I'll watch anime or like some really bad TV show. And then I write my thing that's not that at all.

BP: You said anime?

JO: Huh? Anime. Yeah. I love, I love watching anime.

Isis: Do you have any recommendations?

BP: I knew it. I knew you was a anime, Black girl. I called it.

JO: I've been an anime Black girl since I was five years old.

BP: See. That's another thing too. Maybe, it's not my chaotic bottom energy. I'm just not an anime nigga. Like that's like, what Frank was reading. That's what Kele Okereke was reading like, oh my god.

JO: Anime niggas do stick together. We ride hard for each other.

BP: All my ex-Black boyfriends were all anime niggas. And I was just kind of like, I was like, how did I miss this boat? Like.

Isis: Right. I'm with you though. I'm with you. I haven't-

JO: Wait, so you've never seen anything?

BP: I mean, I saw some things but I never gravitated toward it. Like, oh, this explains my fantasy world. Like I was just like into poetry.

JO: Well, okay. Here's the thing, if you want a recommendation, just 'cause it's in its final season. It's done now. And I think it's one of the best watches of all time. Anyone who's actually an anime freak on here is gonna roll their eyes at me because it's like the most obvious recommendation. But again, I'm get, I'm trying to get people like sunk in right now. Watch Attack on Titan. Just watch Attack on Titan.

BP: Last thing, I'll ask you too. Do your man got a gay cousin?

JO: I don't know. He's apparently the only gay person in his family.

BP: So, he got some down low older brother, Trey.

JO: I think his auntie is, I think his great aunt was gay, which…Also, on Netflix. There's some really great anime as well. One that I think you'll love, Brontez, is one called Beastars. Beastars is disgusting and amazing.

BP: I'm into it.

JO: It's about a world where everyone's like an anthropomorphic animal and they just started letting carnivores and herbivores like go to the same high school. And there's this like and like there's this one and all the carnivores have to be like, you know, vegetarian obviously. And there's this one wolf who's like, I'm not gonna eat anything. Like I'm so like, I'm such a vegan. Like I don't give a fuck about that. But then, he like is walking around one day and he smells this hot rabbit and he is like, I want to eat her. And he goes and tries to eat the rabbit. Then he stops himself. And then, this rabbit is like a hoe and like, she's like, oh, this is kind of hot to me that this wolf wants to fuck me or wants to eat me. I kinda wanna fuck him. And then, they like get into this weird like, like pornographic love affair with each other.

BP: Oh my God.

JO: It's called Beastars.

BP: And after I watch this anime, the fuckin', the dick will just come trickling down. Finally.

JO: Potentially. Yeah.

BP: Oh, my dance performance in NYC is June 16th, 17th and 18th. I caught that question. Let me fuckin' plug that.

JO: See mine has frozen. So, I don't know if anyone is saying anything. I don't know if anyone likes any of my references. If they're feeling Beastars, they're not. You know what I mean? But that's just where I am. That's my first-

BP: I see so many thirsty bottoms in this chat, fuckin' vibin' for you Jeremy, I'm like what the fuck?

JO: Oh, also another one, you guys would really like is Neon Genesis. That's also on Netflix. I'm just going through my Netflix queue to see what's fun. Food Wars is really fun. I hope you guys are writing these down. These are good. I'm telling you right now. I'm giving you guys some like some fire. Dorohedoro is good. Dorohedoro, that one's really, really fun. Weird universe. Oh, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, obviously. Lots of good ones. Oh, oh. Oh, you would really like this other one, Brontez, called Prison School. That's just about these like boys who get into, who are the first boys get led into this all girls school of like bad bitches. And the girls are like, we don't want boys here. They're like, oh, we have to let boys in because like, like of funding or something. And then the girls were like, well, if the boys fuck up here, we will kick their ass and the teachers are like, great. Like, we'll give you full reign to do that. And the first night the guys are there, they decide that they're gonna like try to sneak into the girls' locker room. And then the girls finally like, oh, we told you, you guys are nasty little hoes. So, what we're gonna do now is we're gonna lock you up in prison school and we're gonna be like these sado-masochistic. They have like these like, they're like wearing, they're breasts are huge. They're wearing these like tight dresses and they just like spank the boys and like make them get to, and so then the boys like staying in prison school 'cause they like want it. It's the best.

BP: Oh my God.

JO: It's really demented.

BP: I hate transgressive work around sex. It's beneath me. (both laugh)

JO: Okay guys, I'm gonna let you guys go. I love you all so much.

Isis: Thank you so much, the both of you for being here. Thank you so much, Avery, for keeping up with a conversation. This has been amazing.

JO: Avery, you're a boss.

Isis: A g for real. It's been like a wonderful, it's like I'm listening to y'all on FaceTime and I'm just, it's been amazing. Interviews in BOMB coming soon. Loading. Libby, our associate publisher has said yes in the comments. Possible rap album, Brontez, I don't know. And possible, Legendary guest judge. I'll be on the lookout for both of these things. Thank you both so much for being here.

JO: Thank you.

BP: Yay. I love y'all. Bye.

JO: Bye.

Isis: Bye.

JO: Love you, guys.